Considering the distance between the two, in terms of League places, not the few hundred crow-flown yards across the river, this week has seen some interesting discussions about the rivalry between Forest and County. A most peculiar rivalry this one and you’ll find all shades of view on both sides of the Trent. There are Forest fans, Zagger included, who will cheerfully spend an afternoon down ‘The Lane’, genuinely hoping to see Notts do well. Others wouldn’t go, begrudging the gate money going into the ‘Pies coffers. Nothing scientific here, but I’d be very surprised if there were that many Notts fans prepared to spend their hard-earned on the red side of the Trent, supporting ‘West Bridgford Rovers’, but there will be some. Large numbers of blokes of my Dad’s generation seemed to be perfectly happy watching either or both, whilst still having a slight favourite and professing to be Red or Pie. As a kid, we alternated. Whilst I definitely supported Forest, I also watched Stubbs, Needham, Bradd, McVay and Masson (what a player he was!). A vivid memory of childhood: Sat in the old, wooden Meadow Lane stand one afternoon, a misdirected pile driver from Bradd stone-cold knocking out the bloke next to me. Meadow Lane had a wonderful aroma of cigars and pipes. The smell of either takes me right back there.
It’s a funny relationship, almost impossible to define or get a concensus, whilst individuals can hold very strong personal views on it.
The matter cropped up this week, with Notts appealing generally on social media for the people of Nottingham to help them crack the National League attendance record. Responses from the Forest side ranged the full spectrum. A good number, quite a few of my own mates certainly, were happy to support Notts and bring a record to our city. I’d have been part of this group, had I not been at Muglet Lane for Maltby Main’s match v table topping Grimsby Borough (an undeserved 1-0 defeat, played really well, since you ask).
I’m happy to see this record held in Nottingham, sick of years of hearing how this isn’t a football city. Even Cloughie promoted this nonsense in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It has always felt special to be a two-club city, something to set us apart from other similar sized places. Of course, we still are a two-club city. Notts are still there, but it hasn’t felt the same without them in the Football League. I’d welcome their return. At which point, a good number of fellow-Reds lose all semblance of faith in me!
Yes, there are some annoyingly snide Notts fans, the ones who pointedly refuse to even utter the word “F*rest” or countenance anything red in their lives, which is all a bit lame. The “Always shit on the red side of the Trent,” brigade. The ones who wouldn’t even watch a derby at our place as they don’t want their money going to Forest. But we all have those and what’s football without a bit of tribalism, eh?
You can also see how patronising us Reds, even the well meaning ones, can come across too. It’s all well and good claiming it’s a friendly, almost big brother-little brother thing when it’s your team that have held the upper hand for so long. I’ve got great Notts friends who bristle, rage even, if anyone mentions having occasionally put a tenner in a bucket to save their club. So mention it I do. Often. I’ll also add to that having made a generous contribution to the Jimmy and Jack statue fund, particularly when a County mate is moaning about Cloughie being in the city centre.
And Jimmy and Jack do warrant a statue. When I first started getting interested in football, Notts were a rising force under the mercurial and awesome Jimmy Sirrel. A man who, as an octeganarian, once intimidated me more than anyone before or since. For reasons that now elude me, I ended up in the posh bit of Wembley for the ‘96 2nd Division play off v Bradford. Half time and Notts were struggling. I sensed a mighty presence to my left at the bar. Jimmy Sirrel. “Not going very well is it, Jimmy?” I casually offered. Silence. A perfectly timed scan up and down me. Head to toe. A pause. The delivery belonged in a gangster film. The Glasgow hard guy. The enforcer. “You, son, you… You don’t know.” Just that. I’m not sure I’ve ever felt so insignificant.
For a while, under Sirrel, Notts threatened to resume a position as the city’s leading club. Notts finished 5th to Forest’s 8th in the 1975-6 second division. That same season, Notts’ average gate was 12,414, a mere smidge behind Forest’s 12,805. They finished a respectable 8th, only 4 points behind, as we went up the next year. There wasn’t much in It. Forest found Notts hard to beat, with plenty of draws and Notts probably just shading it on the wins. Notts won 2-1 at the City Ground in March of the promotion season, a result that made them look the more likely to go up, especially when a 2-0 defeat at Sheffield United the next week left Forest 3 points behind the neighbours.
It’s no coincidence that ‘I Believe In Miracles’, the wondrous film charting Forest’s spectacular, meteoric rise, starts with a brief clip of a headed winner at the City Ground from Notts legend Les Bradd. It was highly symbolic of where we were.
It’s an old rivalry. Of course, Forest and County’s earliest matches tended to be against each other. There was only each other and Sheffield FC to play! Forest’s first match, 22nd March 1866, was against Notts on the old racecourse on the Forest Rec. The reds won with a late conversion of a touchdown, 1-0. To be fair, it should be noted that 11 Notts players, in their amber and black hoops, took on 17 Reds!
It’s also worth noting that in 1892, Notts strongly supported Forest’s admission to the Football League, noted in the press at the time as “highly generous”. Appreciated!
Derby matches came regularly throughout the early 20th century, all in Division 2, outcomes fairly even. The 1957 Derby was the last until 1973 as Forest managed promotion to Division One in 2nd place behind Leicester - Notts won 4-2 at the City Ground that year and the game at Meadow Lane was a 0-0 draw.
Matches between the two in the mid 70s tended, as already noted, to go the Black and White way and offered little by way of fun for the Reds beyond the annual demolition of the old scoreboard on the Spion Kop. A hail of bricks would inevitably send the two poor old fellers putting the scores up shuttling down their ladder for safety. Not big and not clever, I know.
Officially, relationships have been good. Cloughie and Sirrel certainly seemed to have a bond and a mutual respect and noises-off have always been sympathetic to one another. Many in the city feel that Notts recent decline wasn’t helped one iota by megalomaniac ex-owner and accidental nob-shot poster Alan Hardy sobotgaging these warm relationships which had hitherto resulted in some particularly great loans going to Meadow Lane: In the 2017/18 run to the playoffs, Loanee Ryan Yeates played 29 times (scoring 6) and played a significant part, as did Jorge Grant who bagged 19 goals from 56 (!) appearances. It’s not cut and dried but Big Alan’s bletherings (We’re coming to get you, your children will all be County fans, blah, blah, blah…) soured a useful, symbiotic relationship and the premature, unnecessary departure of those two can’t have helped as Notts slid to relegation the very next season.
The last top-flight derby was in 1992 when Notts held out for a 1-1 draw at the City Ground, aided in no small part by a magnificent display in goal from Steve Cherry, this going some way to easing the pain of a 4-0 win for the Reds at Meadow Lane.
The derby most celebrated by most Pies is the ‘94 2-1 home win over the Reds. 17,911 saw Gary McSwegan turn Steve Chettle inside out and slot home an opener, before a late goal from David Phillips seems to have earned Forest a barely deserved point. A minute later through and Charlie Palmer nodded home a rebounded Mark Draper free kick to get the win and the eternal, undying love of any ’Pie worth their salt.
[an edit 15.11.21: Thanks to Tom Wardle, @TomWardleMusic, for reminding me about the epic League Cup derby in 2011-12. The one with Wes Morgan’s late equaliser to make it 3-3, with Forest going on to win on pens. An epic. Highlights here! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3AdzxnqwZY
Also thanks to the many who pointed out that I’d omitted to mention to joys and weirdness of the County Cup, where the previous year’s winners would automatically be in the final, whilst the other two of Forest, Notts and Stags would play a semi-final. Bonkers and usually very poorly attended, but I kind of miss it]
So, the debate this week. Should Forest fans support their neighbours? Who knows. Whatever, Notts pulled in a tremendous 12,843. As someone (a Red) said on Twitter, “Congrats to Notts for getting over 8,000 Reds to Meadow Lane today.” Cheeky, but it matters not. Well done to Notts and I for one will hope to be seeing them back in the Football League as soon as they can make it. Cliched it may be, but it’s good for the city.
Happy memories of playing darts for Les Bradd's testimonial year against the forest boys. A very obvious friendship existed between the players and I was privileged to become friends with the forest team of the time. This led to the "Brian" years which were great fun. Another nice article Mr Zigger .. keep them coming 👍